From Burnt Out To Bought Out

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Every owner says the same thing right now. Nobody wants to work anymore. Our
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guest today has spent a career in HR and employment law. And she's going to
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gently take that sentence apart because the data says the problem usually isn't
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the applicants. It's a burnedout manager doing the hiring, an offer nobody can
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find, and a process that makes good people walk away before they ever start.
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Nobody wants to work for you is a different sentence than nobody wants to
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work. In this episode, we figure out which one is actually true.
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Welcome to From Burnout to Bought Out, the podcast for business owners who are
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tired of being the hardest working, lowest paid employee in their own
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company. I'm John, joined as always by Ryan, and together we've spent years
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inside owner businesses helping founders go from running on fumes to running a
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business that actually runs without them. Every episode, we break down the
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real problems nobody talks about. The burnout, the bottlenecks, the blind
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spots, and show you what it looks like to build a business that's profitable,
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sellable, and doesn't need you in the building every day to survive. Whether
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you're grinding through a plateau, thinking about an exit, or just trying
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to take a vacation without your phone blowing up, you're in the right place.
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Let's get into it. Awesome. Ryan, Cindy, hello. Welcome,
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Cindy. Hello, John.
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>> Hello. Hello, hello, hello. Excellent, Cindy. Very pleased to have you uh grace
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our podcast, our humble little podcast.
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>> I'm excited to be here.
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>> Excellent. And ju just a quick intro, Cindy Cannaman Warren is the founder and
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principal consultant at CKW Advantage where she provides human resources,
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labor relations, and compliance consulting services to school districts,
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m municipalities, local governments, nonprofit organization, and
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missiondriven employers. So yeah, we're delighted to have your expertise. It's
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going to make us seem really smart here this episode.
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>> I'll do my best.
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>> Awesome. Makes change right.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Excellent. Good stuff. Yeah. I mean, we're excited. I think nobody wants to
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wear I don't want to work. That's why we're doing the podcast, right? Isn't it
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fame and glory that we're after? So something like that.
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>> Something.
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>> Yeah, something like that. So except we're going to get into in a second.
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Just a heads up for listeners as well is that um Ryan's going to put on the
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owner's hat multiple times throughout this episode, right? Because I think
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Cindy's got so much expertise and we're hopefully not going to inundate you with
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questions too much, but um yeah, it's putting on that owner's hat gives a
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little bit of context to how people um might handle specific situations. And so
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we got a bunch of things to kind of, if you don't mind, throw you. This is an
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episode that's been brewing for a long time. We thought of it a long time ago.
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And Cindy, I know we reached out to you, so thank thanks for finally uh agreeing.
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We we had to twist your arm.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. It's Ryan had to do more twisting than you.
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>> You know, that's that's part for the course.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. So, first of all, why don't you intro introduce yourself
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and then let let's start by taking apart that sentence. Nobody wants to work
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anymore.
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>> Okay. Uh yeah. ly like you said I I'm been working in human resources for over
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25 years um from various aspects grew up in a house where my dad owned his own
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company has gone through multiple careers himself so you know I've seen
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the HR issues from an employee employer uh collective bargaining you name it
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I've seen it from just about every perspective we can see it from so I'm
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looking forward to chatting with you guys about some of the some of the
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topics and yeah it is you it's funny nobody wants to work for me for us
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anymore and you'll hear employees tell you no one wants to hire anyone anymore.
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So, it's going to be a fun discussion.
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>> Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's challenges on both sides. So, yeah,
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let's uh unpack part of it. Brian, I think, you know, as the owner, what what
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are some of the major concerns that, you know, we've got hiring these days?
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Well, I think uh there's a there's a lot of concerns that there's nobody out
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there that's worth anything, right? They don't want to work as hard as we used
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to. They're not as smart as we used to be. Uh you know, we just we can't just
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throw them in there and they can figure it out. You know, there's the candidate
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pool has gotten worse and worse, especially since co, right? So, you hear
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the same things over and over again um from every industry across the board.
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Sydney, what are some of the things that you you've been hearing?
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>> So, same I I mean there's the ongoing generational frustration, right? That
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you have three or four or five generations at play. All of them have
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their own unique personalities and their own work ethics and what they think um
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and how they perceive working hard. Um but you also have on top of that the
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wide range of technology skills, comfort with technology. uh you throw AI in
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there and that's just blown everything up, right? So, it's an interesting
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combination because the perception out there is, you know, that the older
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generation works harder, but one might say the younger generation's working
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smarter. So, maybe they are able to get that job done faster or know the tools
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to use so that they're not working as hard like they like to say, work harder,
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not work smarter, not harder. But then you've got the automation integr
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integration into the whole hiring process which has just become so
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frustrating for everybody. It's one of those cases I think where technology is
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not helping us and I think that's leading to more disconnect as well is
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you know you have really strong candidates applying for jobs that are
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screened out before anybody ever sees them or if you're the hiring manager you
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log on to your LinkedIn or into your Indeed or pick your job search service
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and you've been inundated with 5,000 applications for an administrative
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assistant position. It's just this conundrum we're all struggling with is
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we've lost the human element in some ways and the ability to speak to each
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other. And I don't know if you guys experienced this probably as parents too
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is, you know, my younger sister is 17 years younger than me. She's all about
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text. I'm all about phones. And they're somewhere in between there. You know,
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you got the next generation my nephews who aren't doing either anymore, right?
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they don't sit across the from each other or if you're, for lack of a better
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word, a COVID baby who started school going through a computer, you know,
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you've lost all those social skills. So, you add that on top of the inability to
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just sit one-on-one anymore and it just all plays in. And then lastly, I'd say
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that the biggest perception around what it means to work remote and how do you
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measure productivity, you know, from the people that, you know, if you're not in
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the office, you're not working or if you're on teams and your dot isn't the
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right color, you know, those kind of frustrations instead of focusing on what
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works actually getting done. So, yeah, it's I'd say the whole the easiest way
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to sum it up is frustrating for everyone,
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>> right? Yeah, I think it's challenging and certainly going through the hiring
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process, it's difficult to really understand the quality of candidates and
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that frustration exists on the candidate side of people not being able to to be
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seen, right? So, what does that look like? How do we how do how do we solve
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it? What does it look like from a day-to-day uh perspective like when
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you're applying and also what you see coming in? Um, how do how do we solve
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it? What are your recommendations to companies that are going through these
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challenges? Um, I think there's a couple different
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ways to do it. I mean, the last thing I've been to that was most imper portion
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was a job fair, right? Um, and obviously in bigger areas like where I am in
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Orlando, you have a larger population to pull from. It does at least get you that
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one- on-one meeting with someone so that you actually get to meet the person.
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They're more than a piece of paper. They haven't been sused out by AI. Um, you
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get a chance to talk to them beyond the resume or what's on the paper. So, at
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least there's a little bit of that human touch, but again, if you're a small
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organization with 10 people or don't even have an HR department, how do you
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access th that kind of environment, right? So, it's great down here. Or if
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you're up in New England, you know, up in particularly New Hampshire, Maine,
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Vermont, you know, you're not going to have those same clusters, the same
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number of employers to pull off that kind of event either. So, it's just it
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comes down to networking. Sometimes it's building employee referral systems. I
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think you know kind of building those incentives within the organization that
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you know like just like an employees know who the worst employees are.
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They're the ones that are most vested in making sure you get good candidates in.
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So maybe you start using that as a tool more often is hey you know if you
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recommend somebody and they are successful and hit certain targets not
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just a referral bonus but you know levels on that referral bonus based on
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their actual ability to come into the company and um like your family episode
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probably don't want to encourage them to nominate family members for all sorts of
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other reasons. But you know it's finding those other resources um beyond just
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posting an ad. Um, of course you have to be sensitive to the, you know, equal
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opportunity employment issues and making sure you're complying with the law, but
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at the same time, you've got to find other avenues to at least get them to
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your site or find ways to pull in. And
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>> at the end of the day, word of mouth is always going to be your best marketing
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tool for employment. If your employees are happy, people are going to want to
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come work with you.
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>> Yeah, I think that's some gold right there. Like I think our most successful
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across multiple organizations, our most successful uh hires do do come from that
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that sort of word of mouth where you've because a lot of the businesses we work
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with are smaller. They're not they're not hosting a job fair, right? They're
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not they're not taking the time or don't have the time to dedicate to something
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so so large as an activity like that. But yeah, I think Ryan, we've seen that
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across the board that the recommendations because you also get
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with the referrals, you get more honesty and truth with assessment of a person's
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capabilities. And you're right, the complex hiring world is really
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challenging because we see so many AI resumes now. And it's obvious, right?
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Emphasis lines and and marks and the way things are described perfectly. So, do
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you discount somebody because of that or do you count them in because they're,
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you know, they're using the technology that's available, right? Which actually
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we all need to be using that technology. So, I think, yeah, there's
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>> funny. I mean, 20 years ago, I would have been screening an application based
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on did they actually remember to change the employer name
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>> in their cover letter, right? I mean, how many times did you get I I want this
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position at this company, but they didn't even bother to put the right
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employer in there. And now it's, hey, here's my resume. Here's the ad. Build
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me a perfect application. And I I laughed. I I try it myself. And I was
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shocked to find out I was qualified to be a project engineer.
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So, luckily, I actually read what they what AI put together. And that's the
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other piece, you know, what are the tests for filtering out bad AI and
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actual helpful AI because in some ways it's still a great tool, right? To help
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me find the right buzzwords to get past those AI screens, but also setting up
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setting up the employer to have realistic expectations of what my skill
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set actually is,
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>> right? Yeah. Super important. uh like understanding because AI will make
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everybody sound perfect
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>> and that's the challenge as soon as you get on those initial conversations. So,
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um, what about thoughts around screening and like initial cuz a number of the
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companies we work with do have a have a process. I always like to have a
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20-minut sanity check, right? That that's the and it is either with me or a
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very senior part of the organization because, you know, if that person needs
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to be a they can't be fooled, they'll and they'll ask the right questions. Um,
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and there's that quick sanity check there of um, you know, is the person
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actually right? Are they do they work in the platforms that we work in? Can they
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tell us how to do certain things? Because that will expose somebody right
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away. Is there something that companies can use, you know, quickly to kind of
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work through some of this overload that you're talking about?
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>> What I'm seeing people use is I'm seeing them add specific questions in addition
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to uploading the resume and beyond the general, hey, what are your skills and
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licenses and certifications? They're asking some of those screening questions
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right up front. and you know whether it's a short answer or um some other
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format that allows them to respond and sometimes it's even a video opportunity
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right to present yourself to them um via video recording yourself answering the
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questions that's another faster way to screen it because to your point I mean
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we used to use one you don't you know what a pivot table is right and you know
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very quickly whether somebody knows the answer to that even if I don't
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understand what they're synthesizing I understand whether they know what a
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pivot table is or if they're intimidated ated by through the table. That can also
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be very interesting response. But yeah, I think you have to start even though
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it's an extra step, it'll save you time in the long run if you start adding some
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customized questions that really do get at exactly that. What it's not just have
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you used a payball system, it's have you used and name your specific software.
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>> Gotcha. Excellent. And responsiveness is is key, right, in that whole pro process
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on both sides.
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>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, and that's I think the other big frustration, right?
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Is is it goes out into the void, whether you're the owner who sends out the
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invitation for an interview and then never hear anything again, right?
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Because you think you've come up with this perfect system. Here's a scheduling
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link. Just go in and schedule yourself for the interview and then they never
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respond. Um, and flip that to I apply for your job and I never hear from
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anybody except for the automated, you know, we might get back to you if I even
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get that. Right? So it's that's the other piece is investing in whether even
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if you set up an automated system for responding to applicants ha or sending
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out interview links. You've got to have some kind of follow-up system so that if
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you haven't heard from them in 24 hours or if you haven't heard, you know, you
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pick up the phone or you send the email saying, "Hey, I sent you a link. Are you
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still interested?" Because they want to know that it's not just a recruiter bot
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trying to get all of their information, right? And then they're not actually,
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you know, they're not even 100% sure they're getting through to the employer,
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period. That, you know, maybe this person's just going to start spamming me
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with all of this stuff. And how do I know this is real? And if you're in a
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certain generation, right, you're afraid to hit any links anymore because, you
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know, fear that it's going to do something to your computer.
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>> Right. Right. Right. I mean, that begs and perhaps Ryan as the owner, it begs
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the question about how to attract people and and advertising, right? And the
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challenges around that. other thoughts as the owner of how to
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how to actually bring the people and the responsibility for it?
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>> Well, I think owners want to know what they're doing wrong in their process,
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right? And what's going on with that? And typically what we hear is, you know,
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they run an ad for a couple weeks, they get a handful of applicants, two of them
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know a show for the interview. You know what's wrong with that process? What's
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wrong with their process? why can't they get good applicants, especially ones
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that want to show um you know, and I think that's something that we need to a
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little bit dissect is how can they reach these folks besides,
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you know, let's talk about um small town electrical contractor, you know, in New
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Hampshire or something to that effect where how can they get people who to get
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in front of the right people, right? Because what worked 15 years ago isn't
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going to work now. So what how do we adapt?
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>> Yeah. And it's a it's a hard one, right? Because some ways the small town is
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better from a reputational point of view, right? You're not going to stand
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up the local, you know, business owner because everybody in town would know you
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stood them up, right? But at the same time, because of the internet, you've
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got applicants from far beyond that small group now where you would have
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only gotten the people who saw the local newspaper ad. now literally
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internationally your ad could be found even if you didn't set that as your
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audience. So part of it I think is goes back to that screening process that
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before you even offer the interview what I found some people are even doing is
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quick screening interviews because the other place I see it fall apart is you
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know when they start to hear more about the benefits and salary ranges right
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because you know we're going through this process of transparency where some
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states are or the local governments are requiring that you post the salary scale
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or the range before you even have that first conversation. um there's no
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context to that range in terms of the total compensation and value of that
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total package as an employee. Um so it's going to again comes down to that word
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of mouth. Um but yeah, it's it's it's almost
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it goes back to kind of like I talked about before with how cell phones have
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changed how people interact with each other. There was a time when what you
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always immediately after an interview sent a thank you note and then it became
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a thank you email and now you sometimes don't even see that and vice versa from
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the employer you automatically got a hey thank you for coming in today we hope to
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get back to you within two weeks whatever method that was whether it was
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verbally at the meeting or you know via a separate communication of some sort.
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So there's this loss of and integrity may not be the right word, but there's
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this disconnect about just general politeness and general follow-through
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that I'm not sure how we get back to that, right? And how we're all engaging
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with each other in a society, right? So we all would have said, I'm guessing
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that was just rude. If you told somebody you're going to come for an interview,
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you at least pick up the phone and say, hey, I've changed my mind. But I think
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there's also a little bit of fear. people are afraid of letting people
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down. So rather than than um calling to say, "Hey, I'm not coming." They're just
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ghosting, right? Because that's the other thing that's sort of become
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acceptable, right? Is well, if you just stop contact, you know, they get the
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message anyway. So it's it kind of goes back to, you know, the opening here of,
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you know, how do we work with multiple styles, multiple generations, multiple
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sets of cultural norms and expectations that no longer are are set like they
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once may may have been. Um, so it's a challenge, but it's also one of those
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things. The other piece way to do it is to make sure that you send out that
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email or make the phone call that says, "Hey, just confirming that you're coming
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for the four o'clock tomorrow. have nothing's changed since the last time we
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spoke to you. Um, part of it depends on how quickly your interview process is
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going. So, where I've traditionally worked in education, they were masters
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at making a process last longer than anyone would ever imagine it needs to
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last because you have to have committees and everybody wants to have be heard.
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Whereas the local guy or gal who's working their own shop who just wants a
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qualified electrician to come through the door, right? It may be that they
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just got the ad on their website all the time that says, "Hey, if you've got
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these credentials, we'd love to talk to you." So, some it may also be just
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evolving to saying, "Hey, throw in your thing. Don't wait for a formal opening.
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If you're out there looking and you've heard good things about our company,
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send us your resume." Because sometimes that's the other way you can
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>> keep your process open year round without narrowing it into this one week,
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two week time frame. Um and it also gets you away from the dayong meanings of
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interviews and things like that. It obviously depends on the level of
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position, how much um background checking and all of those pieces that go
19:41
into it and the industry you're in and what you have to do to you know check
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backgrounds just from a legal require legal requirements or in terms of
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certifications and things like that.
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>> Love it. Yeah, that that's some sage advice there. Right. I think we've got a
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number of clients where their marketing, their actual marketing
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um of their business is gravitating towards the level of their employees.
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They, you know, what how they treat their employees, how they educate their
20:09
employees and team members, and it kind of reflects the culture. And yeah, it's
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crazy how many companies use that as an actual tactic for the front end of
20:20
winning business as well as winning good people. And like it it's a great idea
20:25
especially for smaller businesses where you know what one thing comes along and
20:29
you need to hire right away. And so if you have a bank of good people that
20:32
you've had conversations with then you can pull from it immediately as opposed
20:35
to saying oh shoot let's start the hiring process right now and knowing
20:40
that you've got 3 months before you're probably going to get somebody in the
20:44
door and then you're keeping your fingers crossed you got the right person
20:47
in the door. So um I think that's really sage advice.
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I think the other way when I was working at an auditing firm, the other thing to
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keep in mind too is don't, you know, discount reaching out to the tech
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schools, the high schools, the colleges, building those internships,
21:03
apprenticeships, whatever it is. Even if it's only 6, 8, 12 weeks, you know,
21:08
you've started to build that relationship. I mean, we had one with a
21:12
sophomore absent, you know, and as far as I know, he's come back every summer
21:16
since. Um, so you know, I think he's got one more year to go. So we'll see if he
21:20
actually ends up joining the team. But you know, you build those relationships,
21:23
they get a taste for we had another situation where another intern joined us
21:27
and found out, no, no, this is not the direction I want to go. And that was
21:31
great because it didn't waste our time or theirs. So
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>> awesome. Awesome. That is great. Um, what a great segment. Geez, we're only
21:39
just getting started, but that was that was so much great advice there. So, um
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I'm looking forward to the next section where we're going to dig in, uh a little
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bit more on why people don't actually want to work for specific organizations
21:51
and kind of the reasons, but we'll do Ryan's fun fact. All right, fun fact
21:57
straight from Gallup's 2026 workplace data. The decline engagement is being
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driven by managers, not frontline staff, and it's not even close. The people in
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the middle are the ones burning out fastest.
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Wow. So, the layer we're leaning on the hardest is actually the one that's
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cracking.
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>> And an owner who ignores manager burnout is sanding the floor while the
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foundation shifts. Cindy's been saying this louder than almost anyone.
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>> That wasn't such a fun fact, was it? That wasn't really that much fun. It was
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interesting.
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>> It makes you think.
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>> That's right.
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>> All right. So, time for a quick break. And it's a fun and awkward one because
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today's sponsor is CKW Advantage, which is Cindy's firm. And she's sitting right
22:44
here listening,
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>> which means she has to sit quietly while we describe her own company. And I
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intend to enjoy it.
22:51
>> Yes, indeed. CKW Advantage is outsourced HR and strategy for businesses that are
22:56
too big to wing it and too small for a full HR department. Their tagline is
23:00
where strategy meets execution. And that's the gap most owners fall into.
23:05
outsourced HR director, compliance, classification, the handbook, labor
23:11
relations, even outsourced technology leadership, the stuff that quietly
23:16
becomes a lawsuit when nobody owns it.
23:19
>> Mhm. That's the deal. CKW Advantage, ckwadvantage.com,
23:23
where HR strategy meets execution. And where apparently the owner narrates her
23:28
own ad read in silence. I feel like a puppet. I feel like I've
23:33
got somebody's arm up my back.
23:37
>> How do we do
23:38
>> strings? You danced well, monkeys. You danced well.
23:42
>> Oh, good. Cuz we're going to murder the next one.
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>> Yeah.
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>> I'm going to use my symbols. Next one. All right. Okay. So, let's stop talking
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around it. Let's let's dig in now. So, if I'm the owner and I've got open rolls
23:54
and I want the actual list um the specific things that um makes a great
23:59
tradesman take um this job, Ryan, what is it? Start uh start with um the items
24:05
that really uh are most critical. So, what makes the tradesman take the other
24:10
John uh other job is um a couple things. One is the job changes at 6:45 in the
24:16
morning, right? Schedule goes out on Friday but gets blown up on Monday
24:20
morning. The owner calls that being flexible. The crew calls it, you know,
24:25
not being able to plan a life. Nobody quits over one Monday. They quit over
24:29
the ninth one. The other thing is the rate, right? The rate is fine. The check
24:35
is not. And this is how it comes along. We have somebody at $20 an hour. If
24:41
they're at an hourly rate and there's seasonality, there's they're working
24:45
outside, there's rain, there's snow, all that kind of stuff, the worst week could
24:50
be almost half the paycheck of an average regular one during the
24:54
summertime, right? That's huge. That's a 50% swing. Did the person's rent swing?
25:01
No. Did the truck payment swing? No. When they go to a mortgage lender, can
25:07
they actually get a mortgage? because they have to now need 2 years of back
25:11
income to get a mortgage. So, the problem is is that they didn't sign up
25:16
for and change the job. The job changed on them.
25:21
>> Cindy, that really puts the onus on predictability, right, in terms of
25:25
earnings and the stability of that role. Um, what are your thoughts with that?
25:31
>> So, let's start with the seasonality piece and the predictability um in terms
25:36
of work hours, right? So you hear two complaints there um from the workforce
25:40
generally. So one exactly what you just hit on. I need to know I'm going to get
25:44
at least X hours per per week, per month, whatever your pay cycle is in
25:50
order to meet my basic needs. I'm already living check to check. So first
25:55
thing is being upfront, you know, during the process is, hey, this is how this
25:59
goes. you know, the nature of our seasons, the way things work here, you
26:05
know, this is how we have to, you know, this is how it goes because we can only
26:08
pay for the hours work because you're not a salary employee, etc., etc.
26:12
Secondarily, but probably more important would be is is there a way to have a
26:18
backup plan? You know, where you're still able to guarantee the hours and
26:23
have them produce work that the company needs produced even if it's not a, you
26:29
know, the perfect day to be outside or, you know, the noraster comes through and
26:33
that nobody was expecting in April. you know, what are the backup things that
26:37
just don't ever get done that you could have everybody come on site to do
26:41
inventory or whatever those things may be or can you turn it into a training
26:46
day? Can you, you know, how do you utilize those sources to try and
26:49
equalize the pay across the system as much as you can? Um, and that's
26:55
obviously also going to come down to your budget in terms of how you you're
26:58
bidding projects, how you're working in that quote unquote overhead cost for
27:02
providing that kind of stability for your employees. But there's you those
27:06
are things you have to start thinking about outside the box is, you know, are
27:09
there ways to provide 30 hours a week for everybody no matter what the
27:13
schedule is or not? And if there's not, you've got to be upfront with that for
27:17
people. Um, do you have it within your organization to guarantee minimums? You
27:22
know, so no matter how many hours you do or don't work this week, we're going to
27:26
pay you at least 24 hours. So, you can't bank on the 30, but you can bank on the
27:31
24. And then show them, you know, somebody, not a specific employee, that
27:36
you know, an employee who's been employed for you for 52 weeks. And, hey,
27:40
this is where it averages out. I get the es and flow and it sucks in this time of
27:45
year more than this time of year, but just know you're going to average, but
27:49
yeah, it doesn't solve their immediate pro problem. Um, and then there's, you
27:53
know, honesty about the profession you've chosen, right? You know, we used
27:56
to want this with with school year positions is, you know, you can't expect
28:02
190 day work year um as an hourly employee to work the same as a 260day
28:08
work year. you're either not going to get paid in the summer or you're only
28:12
going to get paid when you work as a unless and this obviously doesn't apply
28:16
necessarily to salaried employees but you know that's just part of the nature
28:19
of the beast and people need to understand that and then you know in
28:23
that case we also supplemented it with hey but we have summer school or we have
28:26
these other options so again it's you know can you build in some fail safes
28:32
for your employees that actually will help you or your clients long term um
28:37
you know that's why you see landscape ers who also plow snow, right? You see,
28:41
you know, these dual approaches to how to what work can we do during this
28:45
season to offset those low times. So, that would be, you know, the first place
28:50
I attack it.
28:52
>> Yeah. Stability, right? That that's it's essential. It it's key as people are
28:56
making these decisions about where they're going to land. Um, yeah, that's
29:00
um yeah, obviously a critical ele element of it. Uh, awesome. What again,
29:05
what a great segment. Thank you so much for all your expertise.
29:09
>> That's it for this episode of From Burnout to Bought Out. If something we
29:13
said today hit home, don't just nod in agreement. Pick one thing, the number
29:17
you've been avoiding, the process that only lives in your head, the
29:21
conversation you've been putting off for 6 months. Do that one thing this week.
29:26
That's how it starts. And if you're not sure which one thing to pick, drop us a
29:30
line. We'll happily point you in the right direction. New episodes drop every
29:34
week. Until next time, stop running the treadmill and start building something
29:39
you can actually sell.